Pan Society

[0:00] Introduction

Brendan: When you take the body away, when the body stops working effectively, you are left in a mind-based reality. And so at that point, it should be obvious, and it's not. This gets overlooked a lot still, but if you are in a completely consciousness-based reality, then the contents of your mind essentially are going to craft the environment around you, so to speak, to a large extent.

Laura: Modern animism makes the oldest spiritual belief easy for today's seekers to understand, practise and live. Stay tuned and grow with us.

At Pan Society, we say that animism is the belief that everything is alive, sacred and connected. Today, Brendan D. Murphy is here to talk about that alive part: consciousness. Brendan studies consciousness for a living: how it works, where it comes from, and what happens to it after we die. He's the author of The Grand Illusion, a synthesis of science and spirituality, a massive 600-page book pulling together over a thousand resources, and Reverse Engineering the Afterlife, where he lays out something he calls the Consciousness Transition Model. Basically, the first real attempt to map out what happens to consciousness after death, based on the patterns found across many different traditions and cultures.

He doesn't treat the afterlife like something to preach about. He treats it more like a puzzle to take apart and understand, looking for the underlying structure instead of just collecting stories. And he moves comfortably between worlds that usually don't mix. He can talk neuroscience without dismissing anything unexplained, talk metaphysics without falling into superstition, and talk technology and religion without taking either one too literally. That's why he's here today. So let's see what he has to say about consciousness.

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[1:50] How Brendan Found Consciousness Research

Laura: Hi, Brendan. Thanks so much for being here.

Brendan: Thanks, Laura. I appreciate it.

Laura: How did you become interested in consciousness research?

Brendan: My story is that I have a younger brother, and after I'd left high school, he was still there. He was three years younger, and he had seen a presentation, a talk by a young fellow who'd come into the school, and he was supposed to talk about business. He was a young entrepreneurial type. But he kept wandering off topic to talk about this other book about consciousness and reality, and for some reason my brother thought I would be interested in this. So I logged that this guy mentioned a book, and I thought, okay, I'll keep that in the back of my mind. I sat on that book title for about six months and eventually got around to looking it up, and I bought a copy. The book was called The Holographic Universe. It's actually pretty well known. And I can see you know it.

Laura: Yes. Yes.

Brendan: So for me, when I read that, that absolutely just blew me away. It was just one of those watershed, paradigm-shifting moments. So that was it. That was the beginning for me, and that lit the fire.

Laura: Okay. Well, I could see how that would do that. It had a similar impact on me.

Brendan: Right. Yeah. I think it's probably done that for a lot of people. So yeah, that was the beginning for me. It just lit that fire of curiosity, and then not long after that I started to have altered-state experiences, mystical experiences, and that kind of confirmed the conceptual aspect through lived experience. So that was the beginning of the path.

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[3:23] Research and Lived Experience

Laura: I think that's important, because I think there's a big difference between somebody who researches and somebody who has experiences. And if you have both, then you have both things to draw upon. I think it makes you more credible.

Brendan: Right. Yeah. I tend to agree with that. I'm not one of the scholarly types who's just a man of letters and only knows the conceptual, theoretical side of things. I've tested some of that with lived experience. So gnosis is, in a sense, my paradigm, and it sounds like it might be yours too. So yeah, the experience is really where it's at, because that's where you get to embody the ideas.

Laura: I'm surprised, because your book The Grand Illusion, I've read it, and it pulls from over a thousand sources across tons of different fields, and you stick mostly to data versus your own experiences.

Brendan: Yeah. I guess that's how I've just done things so far. I share my experience where it feels like it fits in, and those experiences in the early days are why the book even exists in the first place. Those were the seminal experiences. But I'm not someone who wants to do a work where it's just a channelled work. My job is to synthesise many different perspectives and data points, and to pull something out of that that people hopefully haven't seen before, which I know I've definitely done in book two.

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[5:20] The Grand Illusion

Laura: So, The Grand Illusion: what was the illusion that you're actually trying to expose when you set out to write it, for people who haven't heard of it?

Brendan: I thought that title would last me through a number of books, because it could be applied to virtually any aspect of existence really. We have so many illusions. And the mystical traditions, from the Vedantins through, I guess, the Gnostics and others, tend to view what we call reality as an illusion. And I empathise with that to a point. To me, I consider it kind of a dream, or a very convincing kind of holographic illusion. So that was kind of what I was alluding to there, with the illusion being a grand sort of deception, or stage show, stage play: this thing that looks real but isn't quite real. And we're trying to kind of peer behind it, peek behind the curtain, so to speak.

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[6:18] What Surprised Him Along the Way

Laura: In the process of having your life experiences and doing all of this research, from the beginning to the part where you actually wrote it down, did you come across anything that was surprising or not what you expected?

Brendan: Probably. It's hard to not be surprised at some point along the way, right, when you've been doing it for 23 years. But my foundational premises were, I think, largely unchanged through the process.

Laura: They received a lot of confirmation through...

Brendan: Maybe surprising sources. Different avenues of inquiry turned up some pretty amazing things. So I guess I've never had to really, as far as the fundamental nature of reality. I mean, I still carry a lot of doubt, even though I've had those experiences, because I'm always questioning and questioning. That doubting mind, that part of us that never kind of shuts up. It kind of wants to push and stress-test things. Is this real? Does this hold up? So that's always part of my makeup and how I operate. I'm always looking for, well, how else could we look at this? How else could we test it? How else could we maybe prove this?

So that's kind of how that's gone for me. I think my foundational, sort of mystical outlook on things is still more or less intact. The grand illusion remains illusory. But yeah, it's been an interesting journey, but I haven't had to kind of back up, about-face, or what's the word? Like, backpedal on any of the foundational ideas, I guess.

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[8:00] Not Picking a Side

Laura: Okay. One of the things that I found really interesting in the first book is that you cross neuroscience, metaphysics, religion, technology, in a way where you're not really committing to any of their assumptions. It really is curious and open-minded, and I find that fascinating. How do you keep from picking a side and saying, "Okay, this is it"? Because I don't know that I could do that.

Brendan: Okay. Well, that's cool feedback. I don't know. I don't think I'm particularly wired psychologically to commit to a position as such. I do have my bias. As I was saying, my bias is kind of in that mystical direction. It might be a Vedantic kind of direction. And there are multiple different esoteric traditions that hold that reality is a type of illusion. I probably don't take it as far in some respects, because they will say, "Oh, well, this is an illusion." It's almost beneath contempt for some of these people in these traditions. I don't quite have that attitude, and I'm not trying to desperately transcend it or achieve liberation or any of that stuff. I kind of agree with them, but it's the personal inflections and emphases and the attitudes that I don't want to inherit.

And I don't know if you know Human Design. I'm an HD Manifestor, and in my chart reading I have an undefined head centre, which apparently contributes to me being able to just kind of pick and choose between perspectives rather than being committed to one.

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[9:50] Why "Reverse Engineering"?

Laura: Okay. So your second book is called Reverse Engineering the Afterlife. And again with the titles: why reverse engineering? What does that word choice tell us about what's in it and how you approach the topic?

Brendan: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm trying to convey with that that I'm approaching the subject from a kind of structural perspective. I'm looking at it in terms of mechanics and process. Does this withhold scrutiny? Which ideas converge to make sense? Where are their points of tension? Can we reconcile different perspectives and make sense of that point where they meet? I don't want to inherit somebody's narrative about this. So I'm trying to convey that this is more of an engineering approach, so to speak, in terms of the conceptual aspect of it. There's nothing technical in the book. There are no equations or anything like that. I'm not that guy.

But yeah, to look at it critically from a structural viewpoint and try to understand: okay, well, if this is true and this is true, or if these reports are all happening and they don't all quite agree, what is the underlying fabric that makes all of those perspectives possible? And then try to reverse engineer some kind of framework that makes sense of all of it, if that makes sense.

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[11:22] What Is Consciousness?

Laura: Okay. So it just occurred to me that the first question I should have asked you, well, the second question, is: what is consciousness? When you say consciousness, what does that mean to you, so we all get on the same page?

Brendan: Yeah. Right. Okay. Consciousness to me is just awareness, which is just another way of saying consciousness is consciousness. To me, it's the explanatory principle. It's not the thing that needs to be explained, which is what material science is trying to do. It's trying to explain consciousness from the point of view of, say, neurology, neuroscience...

Laura: What's happening in the brain.

Brendan: I'm saying that's upside down. It's backwards. Actually, consciousness as a formless, non-local, substrate-free, substrate-independent perceiver is the ground of reality. So there's a ground of reality that has awareness and perception, and from there it essentially dreams reality into existence. That's kind of a simple way of putting consciousness, to me.

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[12:36] Can the Afterlife Be Mapped?

Laura: Okay. So what makes you confident that consciousness after death has a structure that can be mapped, rather than being something different from person to person? What makes you think it could be mapped, I guess?

Brendan: Not to be a smart-arse, but I've kind of mapped it. But yeah, you make a good point, because there are a lot of conflicting reports on post-mortem experience. We have what the born-again Christians think, we have the Jewish perspective, we have all of these religious traditions, and then we have all the recent, more New Age sort of stuff. It's really endless, and they can't all be true at a literal, nuts-and-bolts level. That's the thing.

So I'm trying to understand, and I think I've gone a long way towards this in book two, how all of those perspectives arise in the first place. And we can map a lot of the process of post-mortem mechanics, in terms of the transitions that consciousness goes through, the shifts it experiences. People talk about it in terms of planes of reality, or states of consciousness. And there are so many points of convergence across thousands of years and dozens and dozens of different traditions and cultures that it's allowed me to essentially excavate a lot of the underlying structure and the process, and the laws governing that post-mortem process.

Laura: So you're saying that you looked at different stories across different cultures, different times, and NDE stories. That's what you're looking at.

Brendan: Yeah. All sorts. All of that. Out-of-body experiences across cultures, the contemplative traditions, mystical experience, basically any kind of altered-state experience. And to draw also on the established frameworks that some traditions have, like Vedanta or Gnosticism or Theosophy or what have you, and to actually line them up and stress-test them and go, okay, what makes sense here? What is the kernel of truth that's sitting in all of these? And what does that look like for somebody in 2026 who is dealing with a loved one in the process of dying, or who might be facing death themselves? What are they facing? What are they looking at? Does that help?

Laura: Yes. What I think I'm hearing you say is that you're looking at consciousness regardless of whether there's been a body death or not. So any kind of metaphysical experience, any kind of plant-induced experience. Is that what you're saying?

Brendan: Yeah, exactly. All types of experience are valid data points, essentially.

Laura: Okay.

Brendan: Yeah, I'm working from phenomenology.

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[15:46] What Happens After Death

Laura: So what does that tell us about what happens after death?

Brendan: Well, that is the question that I've spent over 200,000 words unpacking in that book. So it tells us quite a lot. There are patterns that recur, and there are identifiable things that we can point to time and time again. After a while, you realise you can place or situate somebody's experience in terms of a broader tapestry. I have tiers. I have what I call a multi-layered reality stack. So I have the physical level...

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Brendan: ...etheric, astral, mental, causal. I borrow the terminology from other traditions, and I modernise it through internet and technology analogies and all sorts of things. So it does tell us a lot. And I know that's a very vague, broad answer, because it was a very open question. We can drill into any particular aspect you want to ask about, for sure.

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[16:52] Fear of Death and the NDE Pattern

Laura: Well, I think a lot of people are scared of death, and they want to know: is there something there? Am I going to see my dog again? Is that it? Am I going to go to hell? I think there are lots of questions, especially if you come from a Judeo-Christian background and you're taught these things, that people are frightened. I work with a lot of people who have religious trauma syndrome, and they are scared to death of dying.

Brendan: Right. Right. Yeah. Well, they shouldn't be. It's really sad that we've come so far in so many ways, but we're so backwards in certain respects. Those things that you just mentioned are really baseless stuff, overwhelmingly unsupported by evidence. So a theological person is not going to hear what I'm saying. They're not going to care, because they don't operate in terms of evidence. They want to believe what they want to believe.

But if you want to talk about, okay, empirically speaking, what are we dealing with here, what happens, then we look at phenomenology, lived experience. We have the field of NDEs, for example, as one example among many, to point to survival of consciousness. And there's a pattern even just in that one box, which I go into a lot of depth on. There are very distinct recurring patterns. Somebody has a trauma, even sometimes without trauma, but usually involving some kind of physical trauma. They notice that they are hovering next to their body. They're looking down at the scene around them. There might be a doctor trying to resuscitate them, this kind of thing. Then they notice a light off to the side, or a being of light shows up, and then it unfolds from there. Maybe they take a journey into another realm, or a city of light or a city of crystal or something. They meet their so-called higher self, or the being of light initiates a replay of their life. So they get this life review, which is quite a famous aspect of NDEs. So yeah, I think I've wandered away from your original question, but we can pull on a lot of those different threads.

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[19:07] Hellish NDEs and Interface Layer Phenomena

Laura: Were there any outliers, any anomalies? What you were describing, I think anybody who's done any sort of research on NDEs, that's the kind of stuff you hear. Was there anything that wasn't those kinds of things that showed up in your research?

Brendan: Man, at this point, I don't even know what to say to that. I think I've seen just about everything under the sun at this point, and some of it is really weird. Some of it is really eyebrow-raising. A lot of the stuff that doesn't get talked about as much is the less pleasant side of it. Anywhere from, I think, five to 25 percent, roughly, ballpark figures, of NDEs are reported as unpleasant or hellish. And so for me, rather than skate past them and go, well, that doesn't fit my worldview, I want to lean into that and go, well, why are some people having horrific experiences, and most of them are having the exact opposite? How do we make sense of that?

And so one of the threads that emerged pretty early on is that when you take the body away, when the body stops working effectively, you are left in a mind-based reality. And so at that point, it should be obvious, and it's not. This gets overlooked a lot still. But if you are in a completely consciousness-based reality, then the contents of your mind essentially are going to craft the environment around you, so to speak, to a large extent. And so when people have a lot of unresolved emotional trauma, for example, a lot of unresolved emotional baggage, whatever you want to call it, that tends to show up early on, including that religious trauma programming that you talked about. That will inform the early stages of the experience very often.

I refer to that as interface layer phenomena. Early on, you get a lot of very symbolic, representational sort of phenomena in the near-death experience, because so much of it is based on the idiosyncratic contents of somebody's mind from this life. And what shows up at first a lot of the time is unresolved trauma, and for some people it's very vivid. There are case studies like, for example, Kathy McDaniel, who had a very extensive... She was put into an induced coma, just for context. There's this movement now against putting people into induced comas, because a lot of them are coming back and saying that they've had these horrendous experiences while they were supposed to be unconscious, in essentially an alternate reality.

Kathy had a very long, protracted NDE process, which began with multiple stages of essentially recycling unresolved trauma from her actual physical life. She had a really horrible time for a number of days while she was in this coma. And she realised afterwards, when she had time to think about all these horrible experiences she had in the NDE, that it was all based on traumatic events from her actual life. So this is what I'm talking about when I say interface layer phenomena. Early on, we tend to get confronted with some of the repressed or suppressed aspects of our minds, which become our lived environment. So we're almost putting in a good word for psychotherapy here.

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[22:55] Rituals for the Dying

Laura: Well, also maybe for rituals after death. Do you think that matters?

Brendan: Well, the Tibetans definitely thought it mattered. And I think so, because what they realised was that as somebody is transitioning, the mind, again, entering into a mind-based reality with no physical anchorage, can be quite unstable. And so their rituals were designed to basically stabilise the consciousness of the dying person. They understood that that consciousness, even though the body might look very, very dead, that person's mind is still functional. And they're trying to guide that mind and stabilise it and keep it focused on the light, kind of thing, and not wander off into getting caught up in visions and deities that might appear, the wrathful and peaceful deities and all this kind of stuff, the different appearances of what have you. They're trying to help you to navigate the transitions in a stable way. So they understood that many, many centuries ago. And I think that's why almost any form of... it doesn't have to be a Tibetan kind of practice. It could be almost anything to help somebody orient themselves and stay calm and stable as they are separating from the body. That is definitely valid, for sure.

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[24:14] Preparing for Death

Laura: Okay. So we're all going to die. Do you have any suggestions for how someone might prepare for that?

Brendan: That's a great question. I feel like what I'm doing, and have been doing for the last 23 years, is a form of preparation...

Laura: For sure.

Brendan: ...like trying to get informed about it. And a lot of people take various entheogens, maybe in a shamanic context or in a therapeutic context. They'll take DMT or whatever it might be, mushrooms, and they'll come back and say, "Oh wow, now I know what it's like to die. I've been there before." They actually had the memory while they were in that process of, "Oh, this is what it's like to die. I remember this. I remember the feeling." And so they're prepared. That's a form of practice and preparation. And that's what the Tibetans were on about as well. It's all about preparing to lucidly and consciously and intentionally make that transition. It's almost like their entire life is geared towards preparation for that. So getting informed about it, even just intellectually, I think is great. But taking it to an experiential level, like a lot of people are doing now, is even more powerful.

Laura: Mm-hmm. Have you had an NDE?

Brendan: No, I've just had the altered states without the trauma.

Laura: Okay. Well, that's one of the things though. You never know what's going to come with it, because you could have that.

Brendan: Yeah. I hope that I don't have to have an NDE as such anytime soon. But sitting in meditation is a way of practising awareness through altered states of consciousness, and...

Laura: Yeah.

Brendan: ...navigating something that might be unpredictable or challenging, even.

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[26:10] A Multidisciplinary Approach

Laura: Okay. One of the things that I found interesting about you and your work is that it is multidimensional. Maybe that's not the best word. You cross fields...

Brendan: Multidisciplinary.

Laura: Multidisciplinary, yes. Thanks. How does that work with people who are singularly dimensional? Do they accept your work?

Brendan: I wouldn't think so.

Laura: No?

Brendan: I don't get a lot of feedback from people who have that mentality, because they're not drawn to it in the first place.

Laura: Okay.

Brendan: Because why would you read past page three of book one of mine, or book two, when you know right up front that this is someone who's drawing on literally hundreds of different disciplines and fields of inquiry to pull together a tapestry that transcends any given one of them? If you have that more narrow, dogmatic mentality, where you're like, "Oh, I've got the answers here from neuroscience and that's all there is to it," I mean, good luck to you. I'm not your guy.

Laura: Okay. Okay. To me, that's the best way, because then there's no stone unturned, and you get to see the exceptions and question the exceptions. I don't know. I like that.

Brendan: Yeah. It lights me up. I'm glad we're on the same page there. I've got a lot of rich experience out of finding the points of disagreement, the points where, well, how can this person and this school of thought say this, and then over here they're saying this? These pieces don't fit. But then to sit with that for months or years and then find the solution to that is, for me, very gratifying. And that's not possible if I take anything other than the approach that I take.

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[28:10] Where to Start

Laura: So if somebody is listening to this conversation and they're just like, wow, I really want to know more, where would you suggest they start?

Brendan: The simplest place would be my website, obviously. It has the links to the books and all the various works. That's a given. I also have some free stuff up on Substack. I post there occasionally, so people can get a little bit of an insight. Some of the book samples are up there, and excerpts and that kind of thing. They're, I guess, the two main places.

Laura: Is one of them more entry level? Do you need an understanding of the first one to get the second one?

Brendan: No, you definitely don't need to have read the first book to read the second. I feel like Substack, because it's bits taken out of context and then I have to try to make it contextual, I try to make it more entry level, so that people don't sit there going, "Oh, this seems like it's taken out of context. How do I make sense of this?" So it's a little bit more accessible, I think.

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[29:15] What's Next

Laura: Okay. Cool. Can you tell us about what exciting things you have coming up? Any events, any new books, any new anything?

Brendan: Well, my life's pretty boring. I have a five-year-old daughter, so we're at home doing the family stuff a lot. And when she's out at school or whatever, we're just working. We're just heads down. I'm just trying to get this last stage of editing on this second book done so that we can actually print it and put it in people's hands. So that's really my focus right now. We're doing the podcast sort of thing, and I'm going to be on a few others in the next month or so. But really, the focus for me is just to get this work done and polished and into people's hands as soon as I can. That's kind of it. So my life is almost like a cloistered monk type of existence, except that I have a family.

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[30:07] The Regenetics Method

Laura: I just remembered, I want to ask you about Regenetics.

Brendan: Oh, yeah. Okay. The Regenetics Method. Sure. Did you have anything particular?

Laura: I would like first for you to just tell us about what that is.

Brendan: So this is a modality I stumbled on in, I think, 2011. Let me just give you the nuts and bolts. It consists of four different sound-based ceremonies, if you like. The first three last for about 30 minutes, and the fourth is a little bit longer. And it's using a very particular formulation of vowel sequences. It's very targeted and it's repeatable. It's not something that we're pulling out of the air. It's actually set. Each one of the four stages has its own particular combination of vowels. And we work with the Solfeggio frequencies as well, as a way of delivering the information, I guess is the way I would put it, into people's fields and bodies.

So it's a very powerful kind of healing modality, but it has kind of an evolutionary leaning in it. A lot of people now are familiar with sound-based therapies, sound healing of all sorts. But this kind of transcends that field, because it's operating in terms of: okay, this isn't something we need to repeat. This is activating something inside of you that will run on autopilot, kind of like an automatic reset for your operating system. So we don't need to redo sessions. We don't have multiple sessions or that kind of thing. We just have the four, spaced out over a two-year timeline, and then when they're complete, they're complete. Is that explaining a little bit of it? I'm facilitating this for people now, obviously. But if any of that's unclear, please ask.

Laura: So you've experienced this.

Brendan: Yeah. I started my journey with it in 2011, which meant that by the end of, say, 2013 or '14, I'd definitely completed that timeline. And I started facilitating it for other people, I think around 2012, 2013. So I've done it for many hundreds of people now. And it's one of those things where I'm often surprised at the feedback, the experiences people have, all sorts of interesting little things that happen even during the session. But it's not really about the session itself. It's about the aftermath: the upgrades, the way that it shifts somebody's operating system over a long period of time without them having to do anything intentional or redo things.

So it's a very interesting process, and I noticed shifts in myself straight away when I first did level one. I'd had problems with my shoulders for a long time. They were sore to sleep on and all that kind of thing. And they started to correct themselves and heal up really quickly. So I thought to myself, well, clearly this is doing something very interesting here. And I wanted to share that with people. So I've been doing it ever since.

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[33:10] Regenetics, Trauma and the Fear of Dying

Laura: So if somebody's worried about dying, because we talked about that earlier, would this do anything to heal some trauma, change their DNA, change their program, to make that an easier process?

Brendan: I would think potentially, because ultimately we're addressing the core layers of the human: the physical, the emotional and the mental, and then finally the spiritual, in a more targeted way, with the fourth activation. And they are referred to as DNA activations. But let's just say, if you're going to reset somebody's operating system or reinstall some new software for them, we have the capacity to change the way they think and feel about things on a very basic level. And for a lot of people, it's a trauma-releasing kind of process, trauma healing.

I noticed that myself, in very subtle ways. As I went through the second and third stages, certain thought patterns started to shift, and there was a very subtle level of emotional and psychological healing that was happening. So you can never say, "Oh, well, come to me if you've got such-and-such a problem and we're going to sort that out," because your system, your biology, your psychology, your spirituality, we can't predict it like that. It's unpredictable. All I can say is I've seen a lot of very amazing things happen for people along the way.

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[34:45] Stories from the Process

Laura: Can you share one of the most "wow" experiences that you've heard of, or maybe it was even yours?

Brendan: Wow. I'd have to think of testimonials around that. One of my friends... I don't know, do you know Eileen McKusick?

Laura: Okay.

Brendan: She's a really well-known sound researcher, and she pioneered a modality of sound healing. But she also has gone through this process, and she said to me that when she got to the fourth stage, the final stage of it, it unleashed her career: her level of impact, her level of income. All these things just started flowing together and opening up. All these doors started opening up, and her life just came together in this really spectacular fashion. So that's the big-picture, broader life purpose, mission, spiritual side of it. Other people have immediate things, like I mentioned my shoulders healing and all that kind of thing. So there's a spectrum.

I had a guy message me a while back, saying, I can't remember it verbatim, but he was basically raving, saying, "Oh my god, the level of synchronicity in my life has just gone off the charts. What have you done to me? This is amazing. Somebody just gave me a car." He just started having all these things converge and just change, just kind of level up his whole life. And I thought, this is why you can't predict, because what the whole system does, in a sense, is it pulls somebody into alignment with themselves. And so your unique path is going to look different to the next person's unique path, obviously. So I can't go, "Oh, well, Laura Giles, X, Y, Z is going to happen for you. That's going to be the result." I can't do that.

But I can go, well, here are some of the patterns and some of the tendencies we've noticed. For example, if you're in a relationship that's really not aligned and not healthy, that'll probably dissolve pretty quickly after we do the first session. I've had a few people come back to me and say, kind of in jest, "I blame you for the breakup," kind of thing, but also admitting to me in the same breath that it was not right, that they needed to move on from that relationship. And so it's just that alignment thing, synchronistically pulling people in the direction that they are organically supposed to be going, in a sense.

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[37:15] Closing

Laura: Very cool. Very cool. So people can find out about this from your website as well?

Brendan: Yeah. If they want a direct link, it's evolveyourself.live.

Laura: Okay, cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you and everything you do.

Brendan: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate your time, mate, and your interest. Cheers.